Presence with Eve Hermann LMT SEP

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Dawn: Hi everyone. And welcome to the first ever podcast for You Are Not Your Mother. My name is Dawn Friedman and I’m the owner of You Are Not Your Mother, which is a membership site for parents who want to dismantle family patterns of dysfunction through their own parenting. Basically, if you want to parent your children differently than you were parented, you’ll find lots of help and support in our membership. I’ve been working with kids and parents for 30 plus years as a preschool teacher, a parent educator, a family case manager, and most recently as a therapist in private practice with specialized training in infant toddler, mental health and maternal mental health.

I also have two kids. My [00:01:00] oldest just turned 24 and my daughter, Maddie, is going to be 17 this spring and she wrote and performed the song that you hear at the opening. She is receiving residuals. Every time I use the song, she gets 12 bucks.

Through our time together on the podcast, in the newsletter and in the membership site, I try to share different resources because I know that we all have a different path to growth and healing. One of the things that I’ve learned as a therapist is that therapy doesn’t always happen in the counseling office. If you’ve decided that you want your life to be different and better in your oriented that way, then you’ll find lots of healing opportunities all around you in books and music and movies and conversation with friends. But I also think that we can be deliberate and looking for those resources and information. Which is why I wanted to create a healing community. Where you can come together with like-minded people and start finding in sharing those resources with each other. I offer you [00:02:00] points of view from a variety of experts, people with different trainings and beliefs people I agree with and even people I don’t. This is because I know that what might work for you is going to be different than what might work for someone else or what worked for me. So if I mention a certain book or a certain article and you check it out and it doesn’t do anything for you, that’s fine. Like they say in the 12 step programs, take what you want and leave the rest.

This month, the theme in the membership site and on the podcast is Presence.

I chose this because I’ve learned that the first step towards making any change whatsoever is stopping and doing nothing. Not totally nothing, but nothing, but looking around at where you’re at right now. Looking around and recognizing who you are in this moment and realizing where you are in this moment and this is big work. It’s harder than it sounds. Being present doesn’t require changing. It [00:03:00] just requires noticing and we’re people who love to take action. We decide that we’re going to get a new planner , start a new cleaning routine. But before we can do that, we really just need to stop.

We get so caught up in our lives, so overwhelmed with our to-do lists that we try to take that action without realizing what it is we even need to do. We become really harried, running around, trying different things, creating different to-do lists. Demanding more and more of ourselves. And then getting frustrated when we can’t follow through.

There’s something that I’ve thought about when I’m in the counseling office, when I’m feeling a lot of urgency coming from my client that I’m sitting with, maybe they’re feeling anxious, maybe they’re really fed up and frustrated. And I catch that feeling. I catch that feeling of urgency and I want to do something for them. I care about my clients. I know that they’re coming to me because they want things to be different and I feel myself responding to their sense of urgency. And that [00:04:00] becomes my sense of urgency. I’ve learned that whenever I feel that I shouldn’t do anything at all that I just need to stop and be there with the client. When I was a new therapist and really struggling with this, I would picture a big sign behind my client that said, “Don’t just sit there, do nothing.” The doing nothing part. That’s the presence that we’re talking about in this podcast, because doing nothing is doing something.

Now for me, when I check in with that sense of urgency, I feel it in my stomach and my chest. I feel like I have this need to sit up straighter to lean forward, to take action, to start staying a whole lot of stuff. Pulling books off my shelves, pulling out worksheets but whenever I’ve given into that urgency with clients, I end up running right over them. I end up not really hearing what it is that they want, because sometimes what they’re telling me what they want, yeah, it’s true’ they want that, but it’s not where we’re going to find the answer.

Okay, let me try to give an [00:05:00] example of this. So sometimes a client will come to me because they have a particular challenge with their child and they want me to problem solve with them. They’re sharing their frustration with me and they’re getting real riled up about it. And I can feel their tension. I’m catching their tension. And maybe it’s an issue I’m really familiar with. I do have answers. I have books to recommend and things to try. I may miss what’s actually going on if I rush to problem solve, because maybe it sounds at first like what they’re talking about is a behavioral issue, but really when we dig into it, that behavioral issue is a symptom for something else that’s happening for the family. Maybe the way we need to take action is not me giving them tips or tricks on how to make their kid eat breakfast or go to bed on time or quit with their backtalk. Maybe the answer is going to be in digging into how the client really feels about that. S

o I have to be present with the client in that moment. Truly feel what it is that I’m feeling, [00:06:00] allow myself to feel it, but not necessarily act. And at the same time, I need to help the client tolerate their feelings of urgency to give us enough time to ask questions so we can figure out what’s really going on. Sometimes it is just a trick, a parenting tip, but oftentimes it isn’t. I’ll tell you though, being present for my clients is a cinch compared to being present for my kids, because that sense of urgency that I feel with clients? I feel that even more with my kids, when they’re telling me about a problem they’re having or sharing an anecdote with me and I can see this opportunity to teach them something. But our kids are just like other people; they don’t welcome unasked for advice. And so learning to be present professionally has really benefited my relationship with my children and my partner, because it’s allowed me to be better about being present with them too.

Eve Herman is our first guests on the show and that’s a little bit [00:07:00] about what we’re going to talk about with her. We’re also going to talk about what she does as a body worker. She’s a massage therapist with specialized training in somatic experiencing and cranial sacral. We’re also going to talk a little bit about some other things that she offers. All of her work is virtual right now and she can meet your needs via zoom. Now, remember if you’re a member of the You Are Not Your Mother site, you’ll be able to meet with Eve. We’ll be posting this interview inside the membership and you’ll be able to ask her questions there and she will take her time answering them. So I hope you’ll take advantage of that. If you’re not a member of You Are Not Your Mother. I hope you’ll check it out at YouAreNotYourMother.com. You can join our email list. I send a newsletter out every Sunday that I keep short and sweet and I try to give you a resource that you’ll find useful and tell you a little bit about what’s going on in the site. And of course you can always reach out to me. If you have questions about the membership or what it’s like to work with me, or if you’re looking for more information about the [00:08:00] resources that I share.

I also encourage you to look at the show notes so you can learn more about working with Eve. You can find her at columbuscraniosacral.com. And if you go to our website, you can learn more about scheduling with her and also sign up for her newsletters. She has two. One’s called The Embodiment Rabbit Hole, which I really love. She writes a little bit about books, the things she’s reading and learning. She’s really transparent about things that excite her and interest her and that she has questions about. She also has a newsletter called The Anxious Body, which is about the course that she offers. She includes lots of information specific to working with anxiety and overwhelm. Okay let’s dive into the interview.

Hi Eve. Thank you so much for being the first person on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Can you give us a quick overview of the kind of work you’re doing right now

Eve: Because of COVID I am not doing in-person work. So that means the work I’m doing is [00:09:00] remote using zoom. And I wanting to start people off with basically it’s resetting the baseline system responses that is using work that I am currently being trained in, which is called, transforming transforming touch. And it is very, it’s the same process each time. And what it does is it works with the kidneys, adrenals and the brainstem to establish a sense of safety. And so there’s six sessions and those successions, you should see shifts and changes and awarenesses occurred. That shows you that your system is stabilizing and finding safety it’s it’s like a guided meditation. The key part to that is the presence [00:10:00] of someone who is holding space and safety for you. So my presence is key. Because it’s developmentally geared it’s developmental work. So having a safe, other is really key to it working.

Dawn: So are they borrowing your brain to regulate? Is that why your presence …

Eve: They’re borrowing my presence as part of making sure that they’re being watched over taken care of supported.

Dawn: How would somebody know that this is an intervention that would be helpful to them?

Eve: There, I would say if there is a constant sense of agitation as one, one, hint that you need some sort of regulation in your system. If it is harder to stay, present and [00:11:00] engaged with the people around you that you have been used to being present and engaged with. That would be a cue as well. Like I think I might, my kidneys and adrenals and my brainstem are doing some different things. They’re trying to manage some sort of uptick in nervous system energy that is taking you out of the present moment.

Dawn: Can you define presence for me a little bit ?

Eve: For me it is being aware of your surroundings through whatever senses are most present for you. So if you are like really engaged with what you can see. What you can hear, how your body is resting or standing. See, hear, smell, feel like temperature, really being for me, it’s very visual at times. It’s if my eye, if I feel like I’m looking at the world from behind my nose, [00:12:00] like I’m actually in my body behind my nose. And I see the things around me. That would be presence.

Dawn: You mentioned in my body, how would a person know if they were not in their body?

Eve: They would be bumping into things a lot, possibly. So accidents and mishaps, dropping things, running into things Moving too fast up to something, unaware of the speed at which you’re moving and misjudging not in their body. Maybe discovering after the fact that things have come out of your mouth that you didn’t think you would ever say.

Dawn: The right now people are talking about that in COVID that they’re forgetting words. Is that also forgetting words going into a room saying, I don’t know why I’m here. Is that also a sign that they’re not present?

Eve: I would say yes, it’s disconnect [00:13:00] of the speediness of your body with the speediness of your brain, like the speed at which your body is moving and the speed at which your mind is moving. Like your mind has gone, Oh, you got to go get that thing. And that tells you, your body starts moving, but it’s two feet behind and your brain has moved on to 10 things ahead. And you get into the room where you were supposed to get the thing that was 10 things behind. And your mind is 10 things ahead and doesn’t have that for you, the information for you anymore.

Dawn: So you’re out of sync.

Eve: You’re out of sync.

Dawn: How does a person get out of sync? What happens?

Eve: Generally? It is a ongoing habitual response, but it’s so the body. Over time over a lifetime has figured out your nervous system and your body have figured out ways to keep itself safe. We have a lot of requirements to not pay attention to what our body needs [00:14:00] in the moment and our culture. So with schooling, no, you have to sit and sit for particular amount of time. You can’t be thirsty and you can’t go to the bathroom until someone tells you so that disconnect begins or has already been established somehow. So you have this habit of just not listening and the habit of just doing without listening to the body, to what your body is asking. One of the things that’s been really interesting to see in doing that transformational touch work is working with the kidneys and the brain STEM is that people will be like, Oh, I am thirsty. Just realizing that you have thirst throughout the day or I’m tired. I really feel. The tired. That’s what that work does. It brings them back into communication. Like their body finally gets [00:15:00] the voice. It needs to say, Hey, did you know, you need to drink some water? And I know you’ve got like this project that needs to be done. And you’ve got 10 students that need some help. And you’ve got a zoom class that you have to teach, but you also have, like all these things that you have to do and. No time to do it. So you want to stay up until two o’clock in the morning, but you’re actually tired at 11. So why don’t you go to bed at 11?

Dawn: Being the mother of an infant, especially, but then being a mother, you do put a lot of those needs aside. And so what would you say to someone who said, I don’t have time to know what I need. I can’t know what I need because I won’t be able to take care of myself.

Eve: There’s so many huge demands on moms and that way can you ask me the question again? I think, yeah.

Dawn: Cause I’m thinking there’ll be [00:16:00] some resistance from people who will say, I don’t want to know when I’m thirsty because I don’t get enough to drink.

Eve: Part of me is thinking. You can have that conversation with yourself, at least. So you can stay in touch because you need to stay in touch with yourself. If you’re not aware of yourself, your body is what’s giving you cues about what your child

Dawn: needs. That’s a really good point. What you were saying about staying in touch, because then you get to make a decision don’t you about whether or not I’m going to stop what I’m doing and have a drink of water .

Eve: It’s to me, it sounds like the situation where, your mind has said, you have this thing to do 10 steps ahead of you and your body’s 10 steps behind. If you bring that mind and body back into the same moment, then you are really there for yourself. [00:17:00] And that. Is a beautiful place to be with the children. You are taken care of it as well, because there’s a responsiveness. And I know it’s hard because children are really demanding and it’s a lot of energy and they are bringing up the training that we’ve had before. The, you are not your mother. My mother taught me how to be this way with the children. So if you can be in the moment and be like, Oh, this is me and my body and it has a need for water. And I have a responsibility in this body to these beings, but my training was to be outside of my body and not care about all that that feels to me like being in the body can [00:18:00] recognize the futility of being ahead of yourself as well as the desire. To take care of the physical body with the water and the responsible body that is taking care of the kids.

Dawn: What happens to us if we don’t learn presence

Eve: I don’t know that I have a good answer for that. I I don’t know that I can say for sure for everybody. Because I think that really depends on what people’s goals are for their lives. For me, there’s, like I’ve mentioned probably a few times that ability to make a choice that’s grounded and self care and responsibility to the outside world. Outside of me and the richness of being in the moment so that I can bookmark it, make it mine. I feel like as I’ve gotten older, like there’s less of an ability to be like overwhelmed or [00:19:00] like amazed by really beautiful things. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s just as you’re things are so new Oh the sunset I’m 52 years old. I’ve seen 52 years worth of sunsets and they’re really beautiful and they’re really amazing. Some of them and. But I can just be like, Oh yeah, sunset. But what if I’m like watching that sunset and realizing like how the leaves are blowing with the sound of that is and what, how the wind feels on my skin and the colors that are like all the way in the sky meeting me. That’s a consciousness of being present that makes a moment really rich. For me, that’s why I want to keep living so that I can be aware of experiencing those things.

Dawn: And then you’ve mentioned too, that presence is also a [00:20:00] gift to your children. Cause you mentioned that w then you can be present for them. Can you tell more about that?

Eve: So one of the things that we learn and that’s yeah. The neurophysiology of humans of mammals is that we as mammals grow our children’s nervous systems. So they, their social nervous system, the one that engages with us. That learns how to have empathy and to communicate and to express needs is not fully formed. It requires interaction from us. And that is what I’m talking about. As the get, like your presence gives your children a nervous system [00:21:00] that understands what presence is. The more you are interacting with and providing responsive parenting.

Dawn: You, you also said that embodiment, which is that a synonym for presence? I’ll segue off that.

Eve: Yeah, to me it is. Okay. Yeah.

Dawn: You said it keeps us safe from harm. What does that mean? How does it do that?

Eve: Safe from harm? Keeps us safe from harm in with embodiment and a present moment awareness you are taking in the cues of the moment. So you are able to hear, see, sense, proprioceptively, kinesthetically, changes in your environment. Change can be something really interesting something fun, something engaging change can also be something coming at you fast that you need to be [00:22:00] aware of and shift position attitude to keep from bumping your head into the car door, or stubbing your toe on the. The chair that’s always right there. On that basis, basic level, like that’s this kind of safety then talking about, it helps you to be aware of what other people’s systems are doing as well. Taking an accused of the present moment. You might for ease sake, create a model of somebody else’s person so that, as they move through your day, like you just seeing them as that instead of checking in with you and then really looking at them and seeing where they’re at.

Dawn: You have special expertise in trauma. Can you explain for us a little bit about your special expertise in trauma?

Eve: My special expertise in trauma. So I have I’m a somatic experience practitioner, which is a three-year [00:23:00] training working with the the tools developed by Peter Levine and then others within that specialty, that is, it was primarily developed around shock trauma, which is trauma that happens, like a big event. And, that can be known as war or natural disaster car accident, something like that. What they have discovered is that it can also work really well for like trauma comes in all sizes. It’s not just something that is created by big explosions or car wrecks, things like that, that there are smaller things that overwhelm our ability to be with it. And then to process through it within that span of time, around it, immediately around it, which is what a healthy nervous system [00:24:00] can do generally. Which is like something, something happens. It takes us by surprise. We have an uptick and nervous system activity. We hold our breath. We open our eyes really wide, and then we see that it was a bird flew by our head and we can just sorta shook it off. Unfortunately the way we are incarcerated, we don’t get a whole lot of time to shake anything off. The nervous system releases tension and releases that fright by wiggling and shaking and Body movements, legs, smooth, head moves arms. So in working with trauma, from the point of view that it’s in, in our bodies held in our bodies as a particular habit and we can slowly [00:25:00] meet that habit, that holding pattern. Name it, give it shapes, colors, sizes, temperatures, and start to release it.

Dawn: How does presence fit into that?

Eve: Presence is bringing in that language like the body and the emotion and the language bits so that you are, you’re like, Oh I feel tension in my. Am I quads and it feels hot. And you have to be there in the moment. You have to be present with it in order to find it and stay with it. That’s the attention part of it. And be able to name like happening synchronously, places that may not be that tense. What’s a little less tense. What’s a little softer or just not that. [00:26:00] So that, that dual awareness is also really important to help your body know your brain body know that it’s not all tense because what happens with trauma is that. You get this black and white sort of it’s just all this pain right here in my leg. It’s just all of that. And presence can help you like decrease that awareness like, Oh, it’s actually not my whole body. It’s like this part over here and my shoulder feels okay. And so you could get, you began to get some nuance between that space and this space, and you can’t get that. You can’t understand that without presence and embodiment.

Dawn: Is the transforming touch, does it bring in that somatic experiencing training as well?

Eve: it was birthed out from that but also the difference with transforming touch is that there isn’t a requirement [00:27:00] from the client to name anything. Each session starts with getting what is it? Permission? I tell them exactly what I’m going to do. And then ask for their permission and then it begins. So not, as you’ve done it like three or four times what’s going to happen. But the permission part of it is actually to talk to that nervous system that’s in fight or flight, but that’s stuck saying I’m not going to do anything different. So the work is very much about. Falling into co-regulation a coherent place between the practitioner and the client and allowing their system to create movement towards healing, towards regulation [00:28:00] on its own. I hold that space as witness to it. But they’re, they don’t, they’re not required to know any of the language tools for naming the things they’re not required to do anything, but follow my voice.

Dawn: You have said that the body knows how to heal itself. The innate ability of our bodies to heal. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Eve: So much of being like higher brain to thinking mammals is that we judge what the body needs to do in order to heal itself. So that stops us. We get frightened in a crowd of people and our body just wants to like shake and we want to start crying, but I’m at a wedding and I really shouldn’t do that. So [00:29:00] the work of somatic experiencing and the work of transformational touch and craniosacral therapy too, is to create. Space and time were those structures, those like withholding demands of culture release control of that judging brain so that your body can follow it’s the natural pathways of release. Because when we get scared, like our kidneys will clinch up and go up, like all the systems will hold the kidneys way up there. If we get a chance to slowly and in a safe place, know that we’re safe and supported, like kidneys can ease down and they can start to open up. And then now he’s got all that energy. [00:30:00] That moves through that area. It’s it’s your mid back. It’s right there. Connected to your diaphragm. So you’re breathing, your organs are getting the movement. You’re just opening up more flow rather than being clenched up your body needs that. It knows about that because that’s the way it’s meant to be. That’s an animal body.

Dawn: I know that some of my clients are reluctant to do something like somatic experiencing or EMDR or specific trauma therapies, because they don’t want to go towards the trauma, what you share with them to help them understand how they can be safe in somatic experiencing and transforming touch.

Eve: Yeah. I totally understand. I like honor the fact that it’s scary. You have gotten yourself through your life to this point using those skills. [00:31:00] Why would you want to give them up? I honor that. And there is, there’s a kind of vitality and strength that comes from moving through that fear. First of all, if you can get yourself to a therapist and if you can get yourself to a body worker, you have made so many steps through your fear. That’s amazing. With SE and transforming touch, yes, you are instigating change. And the goal on my part is to be very aware of like how much change your system can hold right now. And there’s always agency on the part of the client to be like, Ooh, I really don’t like how that feels and we won’t do it. You don’t do it. Get back off. We can settle in. We [00:32:00] can start talking about their favorite thing.

Dawn: Are you checking in with them then too, as you move through this. It starts by asking permission. And it sounds like you continue to look for and ask for permission.

Eve: Yeah, there are definitely an, any of these processes. There are signs that a body, their body is getting activated one way or the other. There’s the energetic up the sympathetic part or the energetic down, which is becoming. The associated, moving away from the body, like further away, like more into thought or imagination or the other room. So checking in when either of those become evident so like more heavier breathing, faster breathing ice, moving more I would check in and just be like, so how it, how are things right now? [00:33:00] Definitely check in that way. Or I would just start to bring them into the different level of awareness, like noticing sensations on their body, but also noticing the room, having them open their eyes and look around.

Dawn: I’m thinking about the way that children gain language and that language makes things real when they’re able to name a thing, is that some of the work that you’re doing too is helping people have language around their experiences?

Eve: Absolutely. Yeah. I have spent 15 or so years thinking about how the body works and being Interested in sensation that way. And that’s all definitely a whole dictionary of new words and sensations that is unfamiliar for a lot of people. And so to begin to name, like [00:34:00] know, like maybe that agitation that you feel is actually a sympathetic discomfort with something know and learning to, to know when that happens for you, because as you like, Oh, wow. That is me having anxiety. That is my body. That’s how my body does anxiety. It like just looks at things over to the right. And I do this and I, I bang my pen a lot. And being like, okay, what if you just stayed with banging your pen for a little bit. That becomes an awareness, and then you can feel like what happens after a little bit of time? Does something soften to something ease. Like really slowing down and naming the things is such a huge [00:35:00] part of the work of becoming aware of your body in the present moment. And it’s, it is such a learning process.

Dawn: Something I’m noticing here is you’re not using words like good, bad functional, dysfunctional.

Eve: No.

Dawn: It sounds like you don’t have judgment about the ways people have learned to operate in the world. You have curiosity.

Eve: Oh curiosity. And I honor it. You that’s what helps you it’s what’s helped you. And there may be a possibility that you are seeing that there’s something else you want to do for yourself.

Dawn: So no one has to worry that they would come see you and you’ll say, Oh, you’re a mess. This is what you need to do differently. That is not how you operate.

Eve: That is not how I operate. That’s true. [00:36:00]

Dawn: Can you tell me a little bit about what an intake might look, if somebody was curious about working with you, what might they need to know? What would you like to know from them?

Eve: That’s a good question and I don’t have a good answer for that because it just feels people come in for so many different reasons. Their neck hurts, they have migraines. They’re grieving. I want to know about just like practically, I want to know about major events, surgeries, like things, major things that have happened with their bodies. If they can recall them, I don’t have a strict requirement to know all the things, because it’s really one of the primary things about doing body work is that as you’re doing it with people, they remember Oh yeah. And I got run over by a car. Okay, but that’s just how it works. You get to hear life, how you get through it. And then that becomes something that you’re able to share with [00:37:00] me. I really want people to know that I like you were mentioning before that I honor their agency. And their choice. And at every stage, and I love when people are like, no, I don’t want to do that. I’m just like, Oh my God. Yay. They know their boundaries. About practice or know, it’s just a beautiful thing when people say now, and I can say it all right, you don’t have to do that.

Dawn: Are you able to help people identify their boundaries? It sounds like you might notice a change that might indicate that for someone who might be out of touch with themselves,

Eve: I am able to work with that and like the physical body space of okay, if I hold out this thing to you, do you want it? Yes or no. If I take it away from you, how does [00:38:00] that feel? Like when do you notice? So I can definitely work with people about boundaries. There’s definitely. Some places and times where people aren’t aware that their bodies are saying no. So there I feel like it’s my work to be like, this is what I noticed about this place right here. It feels like it doesn’t want me here. So I want you to notice what’s happening right now. And then I’m going to move. And I want you to notice what happens there when I move. And that’s when you can get the sense of Oh, this is what it feels like to have been able to say no, and this place feels safe again. Cause you were too close to it and I don’t want you there, but I didn’t know how to say it. And I didn’t want to say it. I didn’t want to be rude.

Dawn: It sounds a little bit like play like the kind of very serious play that children do.

Eve: If it can be playful, I will love that. I think that’s one of the things that I’m beginning to discover about [00:39:00] my particular way of working is that it is, I have done sessions or like co-regulating sessions with other people trained in se or whatever. And it becomes like this place where we discover that there are like, especially for some reason, like I, with people who are more or trained we are able to access together, like the discussed party things and discussed so much fun. Actually. It’s Belize start going. I really hate that. And then it becomes we’re like those little two-year-olds walking around going GRRRRRRR. It just comes out in this really fun and playful way. Like I’m going to make faces at you because I don’t like what’s going on.

Dawn: So you’re saying presence makes life more fun than too.

Eve: Absolutely.

Dawn: You’re also a dancer. You share how you, because [00:40:00] you left dancing for a while. And then you came back to it and I think that’s very inspiring. And I’m wondering if you can tell a little bit about that journey.

Eve: About dancing? Yeah. I got my first chance to like, do, it’s not the first time I performed, but I started performing when I was 44. And it was so lucky to be invited over and over again, to perform with people in Columbus and discovered and that process a type of a dance called contact improvisation and propositional dance, which is you’re not choreographed, which is beautiful because I actually can’t really remember choreography. Almost impossible, but with. Improvisation. It just, it draws on again, that present moment experience. So you have to be aware of what your body [00:41:00] can do in the moment and what other people’s bodies are doing in the moment. So I got to do quite a bit of work performing with that. I was in a company for a couple years. That was the work. That was what we did in performance. From six to eight people, maybe more on a stage doing basically whatever they wanted. But because we had been working together we were not just like cats trying to be hurted, although it might look that way to other people.

Dawn: I’m just thinking so many people, so many mothers — and we were young mothers together — think this is a life I’ve used it all up.

Eve: That is so true. Oh my God. Those first few years with kids, it’s just what have I done? I have thrown every potential of my life out the window and I will never be able to do anything again, except that grilled cheese [00:42:00] sandwiches. And I don’t want to do that! So yes, there is life after toddlerhood

Dawn: So the improvisation that you do with your dance colleagues, it sounds a lot like the work you do with your clients, because if you’re tuning into them.

Eve: Yeah. They both feed in. And to each other in a really wonderful way. And that’s, one of the really great things about the se training is that I have so much such a deeper understanding of what’s happening in our nervous systems as we move and create together. And what are the things that inhibit the ability to communicate and create together. If we start to get afraid as a performing group, we are going to start making really bad decisions. And that comes up with if you’re not in your body or if you’re in a fear response, like you’re getting less information [00:43:00] about the current moment and you can’t make all the right decisions and that’s when you fall down and or you step on someone or they step on you. And, so knowing that. If you’re moving too fast and your awareness isn’t with you, then you’re going to hurt someone. You’re going to hurt yourself and then recognizing, Oh, that’s happening. So I’m going to slow down step back and make sure I know that all my sentence senses are coordinated. Okay.

Dawn: And when you said that you might hurt someone else that someone else could be your kid too. That’s another reason to be present.

Eve: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I certainly made plenty of decisions when, out of my body that I went back to revisited mentally later and been like, I, if I had been able to be more present with myself, more solid with myself, I might’ve been able [00:44:00] to take myself out of that situation and not said the things I said thrown the Legos that I threw.

Dawn: So a parent that comes to you is not going to, they’re not going to feel judged by you if they share some of their struggles cause you’ve been there.

Eve: Totally been there. Yes. I am a parent. I am a human, I am in the struggle to make sure. There’s somehow some ability to come back to being human.

Dawn: What else haven’t I asked that you want to make sure people know?

Eve: I have some courses that I’m offering putting together that are coming up. One’s called The Anxious Body, I’m working on that. I’m also interested in, I’m going to be putting together something about working with trauma and performers. And those will [00:45:00] all be self-paced type things with like meetings, like on zoom once a week.

Dawn: And where can people find you on the internet if they want to learn more about you and how to work with you?

Eve: Right now you can find me if you look up Columbus Craniosacral. [Note: It’s actually Source Embodiment now] I have a website, I’m on Facebook with that. I’m also on Instagram with that.

Dawn: You also have a great newsletter that comes out how often?

Eve: It comes out once a month; The Embodiment Rabbit Hole.

Dawn: I love it. You do a book review, you share things you’re learning. And again, what’s clear to me when I read it is you come to the world curious, and interested and nonjudgmental, and that really comes through in that, I think.

Eve: That’s awesome. Yeah. I haven’t been able to do a book reviews because I like, in the time of COVID I’m like I’ve got all this free time, why don’t I study new things? So I’ve been taking a lot of courses and I [00:46:00] Actually am in, I’m studying herbalism right now. So I’m studying with the online program of the East West planetary herbalism, which is they combine traditional Chinese medicine and Western neurobiology. It’s so amazing. I probably should have been studying this 20 years ago, we didn’t have the internet. Like we have it now.

Dawn: So you’ll be adding that to your repertoire of services.

Eve: Yeah.

Dawn: Okay. That’s very exciting.

Eve: It is exciting. I’m so thrilled about it.

Dawn: Again, I’d like to thank Eve for being my very first podcast guest. I didn’t mention this before, but Eve and I have known each other, gosh, I think it’s 13 or 14 years. Her son is almost exactly a year and a week older than my daughter. And we spent a lot of time as new moms together. Sitting in the park with our very, very, very active Aries children. Um, and then we were on a writing list together for [00:47:00] a few years. And then she went back to school to get her massage therapy degree. And I eventually went back to school to get my clinical counseling degree. And I think sometimes about the fact that if you had come to us, sitting in the park, these exhausted moms with very busy babies, and said someday the two of you are going to be meeting up to talk about how you serve clients, and I would say, what clients, what are you talking about? I can’t even picture it. I can’t even imagine it. And I mention this because I know sometimes when we’re deep in the trenches of Parenthood, it feels impossible to imagine a life later. And things change really quickly. If you think about how quickly your life has changed in the past five or 10 years. Well, how much do you think it’s going to change in another five or 10 years?

So anyway, I really appreciate Eve coming on the show. And talking about the great work that she does. I encourage you to check her out as you can tell from the interview she loves to [00:48:00] learn, she’s always learning new things and bringing them to the clients that she serves.

If you’re a member of the You Are Not Your Mother membership site, you can come and tag Eve in any posts, you can ask her questions on the page. There’s an Ask me anything section and on the page, this interview will be posted along with a PDF transcript. So if you want to download it, I’m sure there’ll be weird typos, but what can you do? But you can tag her in any questions that you have, have a conversation with her. If you’re not a member of You Are Not Your Mother, I would love to have you. You can go to YouAreNotYourMother.com And learn more about what we offer inside the membership and also see the different levels. We offer a monthly, quarterly, and annual membership. You get the first 30 days free so it’s really no risk to come and check it out and see what you think. I also would love to have you subscribe to my weekly newsletter and you can get to that. They’re also at YouAreNotYourMother.com. But even if you don’t become a [00:49:00] member, I really appreciate you listening to the show and if there’s anything I can do for you by all means, reach out. Okay. Thanks so much. And talk to you next time. Bye-bye

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